The Gaming Den

Delicious bug reports... mmmmm....

On Perception

LeadPal wrote: If distraction is meant to be a relatively common penalty, it needs a definition, or at least a guideline for when it applies. If it's left to fiat, it'll produce arguments every time the GM tries to penalize the PCs until they finally throw up their hands and stop caring. I'd be ok with distraction applying whenever you're taking a standard action to do something else, because that turns your swift action notice into Take 0 anyways.

Extreme Distraction works ok as is, assuming it's supposed to be defined as being threatened in combat, specifically. However, I'd drop "Shocked beyond ability to respond, dumbfounded" from the list of distraction modifiers. Fear conditions already inflict skill penalties, so an extra fiat penalty doesn't add anything. Maybe increase extremely distracted to -10, just to make it easier to remember (it drops notice by 2 steps instead of one).

Defining distracted as "using your standard for something else" is a good call, but it needs more clear wording. It's in for now though, as is engaging in conversation. If I could figure out a non-complicated way to put in "making a notice check in response to an intentionally attention diverting event, except not against the event itself" as well, I'd do that as well to cover the force it on people case. It may well find its way into the main notice check as a thing that happens on active checks.

Pulling shocked and boosting extremely distracted are good calls as well. I've also added engaged in a heated argument to extremely distracted. The bonuses for recognizing or interacting with people you're looking at were boosted to compensate as well.

These were easy patches and are already in, though some wording and additional clarity is likely in the next couple of days.

LeadPal wrote:The Conceal Action skill ability in Legerdemain gives anyone actively watching the user an "immediate notice check". Not only does this contradict the new rule against multiple notice checks per round, it also lets the party metagame when sleight of hand is happening. If someone wants to actively watch for shenanigans, they should roll a Notice check on their turn as normal; the Legerdemain attempt is rolled against the increased Perception result.

Disguise has the same problem, although it's not as explicit.

Nice catch. I'll rewrite that section to simply set the base notice DC to see what you're really up to, instead of triggering a new check. Legerdemain has been concerning anyway, as it's really easy just work slowly and hide what you're doing. Adding a distracted penalty here, with the same definitions as in Perception, will probably happen.

LeadPal wrote: I'm trying to come up with a Perception cheat sheet, since it's causing my players grief; the minigame writeup got blank stares, honestly. Taking most of the above as a given, this is what I've got:
[Good spoiler stuff, that will likely be stolen]

Well, format stolen anyway. Actual word theft would only happen with permission. I'd probably add some similar lines for what the stealth guy's turn look like.

LeadPal wrote:Tangent: Because it's really easy to stay on alert and/or ignore distractions at all times, there should be a way for someone to force the penalty, either with Bluff or Legerdemain. Something like "you throw a rock in the bushes. Targets within your line of sight are distracted if you beat their concentration, no takebacks". Only less shitty-sounding.

Writing this into the system in a less fiat fashion is a good call. But probably not as a skill ability. Throwing a rock, flashing/mooning a guard, starting a fight, and more are all the sort of thing that should trigger the condition, and they're all well outside the scope of Bluff and Legerdemain. I'm tempted to write it into the notice ability that attempting to make out details of a particular even makes you distracted to all others, but I'm worried about unintended consequences there. Will ponder for a while.

On Disguise

LeadPal wrote:Disguise should either cost gp or it shouldn't. Don't put up a sidebar that says you can totally fiat up gp costs if you want, that's bullshit. If we're going with costume-building I figure it should definitely cost gp (which you spend to craft magic textiles and polyjuice potion), but I'd prefer if the costume-building was dropped and Disguise became a variation on polymorph. Honestly, I can accept a ninja turning into a sahuagin with Naruto magic, but I can't accept him making a sahuagin suit out of burlap and bobby pins.

Fair point. I'll write up an actual formula for costs, even though it makes me cry inside. And then turn the sidebar into an argument / directions for not applying it.

Out of curiosity, do you have any problem accepting a ninja turning other people into sahuagin with Naruto magic? Because that's supported by the costume format, and it's not as clearly supported in the other.

LeadPal wrote:Fire Retardant Face Paint should have an expiry date. If there isn't one, it would be simpler for the ability to just say "you and your friends get Energy Resistance 6 forever," because you just can pack your handy haversack with an arbitrarily large stockpile. That's not game-breaking, but blasting doesn't really need to be worse.

Nice catch. Will add one, probably around a week.

On Backup Saves

8 rolls, 3 minimum, is too many. I can boost those numbers a bit and add in an auto-fail state. It'll probably be at DC-11 though, since that's already well off the RNG from even odds. DC-16 might work as well, though it's really low, but DC-21 is probably out for failing to even apply against level 1 spells most of the time (excluding undertrained penalties anyway, which I'd rather not try to incorporate).

On Appraisal

LeadPal wrote:I think Eye for Magic and Identify Magic Items can safely be rolled together at Rank 6. Mind you, I'd also make Identify more convenient, so maybe I should adjust that one to taste on my own.

Yeah, you're on your own here. I'd probably do similar if I were doing more spell changes, but I'm trying to limit them.

LeadPal wrote:What is the DC for Detect Forgery when the target isn't actually a forgery at all? The only thing stopping the PCs from using the ability on everything is the comedy of errors whenever they roll DC-6, so we need a good answer. The easy one is that the DC scales with the target's level, but I'm not sure I care for the idea that the higher the level of the person you're talking to, the more likely it is that you'll conclude that they're wearing a flawed disguise.

For "forgeries" that aren't really, it should be the base appraisal DC. I'll go clarify that. For disguises, the base DC should be similar. Since I'm tempted to boost the default mundane appraisal DC to 12, it'll be in the range of 10 to 12 most likely. I'd like to figure out a way to boost that based on familiarity with or rarity of the apparent creature, so that you're more likely to fail at busting an imposter sahuagin than an imposter human, but I'm not sure there's a good way to word that fairly. It would better mimic the relationship between minimum forged good DC though.

---

I'll think these through a bit, then put the changes up and get a changelog posted here. Probably in a day or two. If any of these proposed tweaks looks problematic, let me know.

TarkisFlux wrote:

LeadPal wrote: I'm trying to come up with a Perception cheat sheet, since it's causing my players grief; the minigame writeup got blank stares, honestly. Taking most of the above as a given, this is what I've got:
[Good spoiler stuff, that will likely be stolen]

Well, format stolen anyway. Actual word theft would only happen with permission. I'd probably add some similar lines for what the stealth guy's turn look like.

Word theft is cool, just stick my handle in the contributor list.

TarkisFlux wrote:On Disguise

LeadPal wrote:Disguise should either cost gp or it shouldn't. Don't put up a sidebar that says you can totally fiat up gp costs if you want, that's bullshit. If we're going with costume-building I figure it should definitely cost gp (which you spend to craft magic textiles and polyjuice potion), but I'd prefer if the costume-building was dropped and Disguise became a variation on polymorph. Honestly, I can accept a ninja turning into a sahuagin with Naruto magic, but I can't accept him making a sahuagin suit out of burlap and bobby pins.

Fair point. I'll write up an actual formula for costs, even though it makes me cry inside. And then turn the sidebar into an argument / directions for not applying it.

I assume you don't want to apply gp costs to disguise because the equivalent magic effect, polymorph, is also free, but like the face paint, there's no reason you can't stockpile costumes. If the dungeon has an aquatic section, you can whip out frog suits for your whole party and then go at it. If later you need flight, you pause for a few minutes and switch to tanuki suits. Overall, it's more comparable to using scrolls than using polymorph.

I grant that if you make costumes expire just like face paint, you wouldn't have to charge gp for them. But I have no idea how you'd fluff that without sounding ridiculous.

TarkisFlux wrote:Out of curiosity, do you have any problem accepting a ninja turning other people into sahuagin with Naruto magic? Because that's supported by the costume format, and it's not as clearly supported in the other.

No, not really. It does create weird fluff, as the effect isn't significantly different from a wizard casting polymorph, but as turtle suits are the current alternative, the fluff has issues to address either way.

TarkisFlux wrote:

LeadPal wrote:What is the DC for Detect Forgery when the target isn't actually a forgery at all? The only thing stopping the PCs from using the ability on everything is the comedy of errors whenever they roll DC-6, so we need a good answer. The easy one is that the DC scales with the target's level, but I'm not sure I care for the idea that the higher the level of the person you're talking to, the more likely it is that you'll conclude that they're wearing a flawed disguise.

For "forgeries" that aren't really, it should be the base appraisal DC. I'll go clarify that. For disguises, the base DC should be similar. Since I'm tempted to boost the default mundane appraisal DC to 12, it'll be in the range of 10 to 12 most likely. I'd like to figure out a way to boost that based on familiarity with or rarity of the apparent creature, so that you're more likely to fail at busting an imposter sahuagin than an imposter human, but I'm not sure there's a good way to word that fairly. It would better mimic the relationship between minimum forged good DC though.

A static DC is easy to exploit. Inspector Clouseau has a -3 (0 ranks, +2 int) to Appraisal, and takes 10 to Detect Forgery on everything. If he's inspecting a person who is not disguised, he fails the base DC of 12 by 5 and concludes that he is indeed the real deal. But if he inspects an impostor with a Disguise of at least DC 13, he flips the fuck out and makes a moronic accusation--which tips his party off that it really is an imposter.

LeadPal wrote:

TarkisFlux wrote:

LeadPal wrote:I'd prefer if the costume-building was dropped and Disguise became a variation on polymorph. Honestly, I can accept a ninja turning into a sahuagin with Naruto magic, but I can't accept him making a sahuagin suit out of burlap and bobby pins.

Fair point. I'll write up an actual formula for costs, even though it makes me cry inside. And then turn the sidebar into an argument / directions for not applying it.

I assume you don't want to apply gp costs to disguise because the equivalent magic effect, polymorph, is also free, but like the face paint, there's no reason you can't stockpile costumes. If the dungeon has an aquatic section, you can whip out frog suits for your whole party and then go at it. If later you need flight, you pause for a few minutes and switch to tanuki suits. Overall, it's more comparable to using scrolls than using polymorph.

I grant that if you make costumes expire just like face paint, you wouldn't have to charge gp for them. But I have no idea how you'd fluff that without sounding ridiculous.

TarkisFlux wrote:Out of curiosity, do you have any problem accepting a ninja turning other people into sahuagin with Naruto magic? Because that's supported by the costume format, and it's not as clearly supported in the other.

No, not really. It does create weird fluff, as the effect isn't significantly different from a wizard casting polymorph, but as turtle suits are the current alternative, the fluff has issues to address either way.

Polymorph was definitely the intended comparison, so working from there is fine. Fluffing as some variant of Polyjuice and topical ointment will probably work, and allow for a "costume" to expire at the same rate as the face paint. Creation times will probably need to be adjusted though, along with the whole repair and damage thing.

It leaves me in the position of having to fluff an "unmasking" event, but I think a few mundane components that could be removed from the person to cause a reversion should work.

LeadPal wrote:

TarkisFlux wrote:

LeadPal wrote:What is the DC for Detect Forgery when the target isn't actually a forgery at all? The only thing stopping the PCs from using the ability on everything is the comedy of errors whenever they roll DC-6, so we need a good answer. The easy one is that the DC scales with the target's level, but I'm not sure I care for the idea that the higher the level of the person you're talking to, the more likely it is that you'll conclude that they're wearing a flawed disguise.

For "forgeries" that aren't really, it should be the base appraisal DC. I'll go clarify that. For disguises, the base DC should be similar. Since I'm tempted to boost the default mundane appraisal DC to 12, it'll be in the range of 10 to 12 most likely. I'd like to figure out a way to boost that based on familiarity with or rarity of the apparent creature, so that you're more likely to fail at busting an imposter sahuagin than an imposter human, but I'm not sure there's a good way to word that fairly. It would better mimic the relationship between minimum forged good DC though.

A static DC is easy to exploit. Inspector Clouseau has a -3 (0 ranks, +2 int) to Appraisal, and takes 10 to Detect Forgery on everything. If he's inspecting a person who is not disguised, he fails the base DC of 12 by 5 and concludes that he is indeed the real deal. But if he inspects an impostor with a Disguise of at least DC 13, he flips the fuck out and makes a moronic accusation--which tips his party off that it really is an imposter.

Point. The accusation would fail, but the metagame would have given it away. 12 (or whatever) + Cha mod (though I'm really tempted to go with - Cha mod, despite the fact that it would be annoying in game) would give it some variety, but probably not enough. And it suffers similar metagame problems if you can determine their Cha mod, as does scaling with level or CR. I could also rewrite the failure states to give you a % chance based on your degree of failure to flip out and make bullshit accusations, similar to the control percentages from activate blindly. In combination with Cha differences, it might be enough noise to throw off metagamers.

Could also just remove the comedy of errors bit, and assume people just look everyone over when they meet them. It really pushes disguise artists to take 20 though, even more than they already wanted to, and I'm not sure that's something that needs more encouragement.

TarkisFlux wrote:

LeadPal wrote:A static DC is easy to exploit. Inspector Clouseau has a -3 (0 ranks, +2 int) to Appraisal, and takes 10 to Detect Forgery on everything. If he's inspecting a person who is not disguised, he fails the base DC of 12 by 5 and concludes that he is indeed the real deal. But if he inspects an impostor with a Disguise of at least DC 13, he flips the fuck out and makes a moronic accusation--which tips his party off that it really is an imposter.

Point. The accusation would fail, but the metagame would have given it away. 12 (or whatever) + Cha mod (though I'm really tempted to go with - Cha mod, despite the fact that it would be annoying in game) would give it some variety, but probably not enough. And it suffers similar metagame problems if you can determine their Cha mod, as does scaling with level or CR. I could also rewrite the failure states to give you a % chance based on your degree of failure to flip out and make bullshit accusations, similar to the control percentages from activate blindly. In combination with Cha differences, it might be enough noise to throw off metagamers.

Hmm. Say the DC is 12 + cha, and you Take 15 with a +2 after every 2 minutes of interaction. You never flip out on anyone genuine up to Cha 20, and at level 1 you'll probably never meet anyone with a higher score than that. Even with no further investment, you're probably going to pick up a competence bonus or skill item from somewhere around when you start seeing higher cha scores, since they scale slowly.

With imposters, you have a chance to flip out if their DC is 18 or higher; presumably, the higher the DC, the higher that chance. And obviously you get suspicious if you actually beat the DC.

This system gives false negatives constantly, but it'll probably never give a false positive. Thus, the comedy of errors still only shows up when the person actually is an imposter, which defeats the point of having it in the first place. Without changing the DC to something extra extra variable like a hidden 2d20 (adding more rolls to resolve), I don't think it's workable.

TarkisFlux wrote:Could also just remove the comedy of errors bit, and assume people just look everyone over when they meet them. It really pushes disguise artists to take 20 though, even more than they already wanted to, and I'm not sure that's something that needs more encouragement.

That would work. But it basically adds Passive Appraisal to Passive Perception and (sometimes) Passive Dowsing. And for that matter, Psychology (Check Deceit) should probably be passive, too, so as to not reward players for constantly bellowing that they're suspicious. That might be an unfun amount of stuff for the GM to track, or it might not, I'm really not sure.

I'll just remove the disguise application, and roll forgery back into the appraisal abilities (like originally intended, stupid last minute adds). The appraisal as disguise pierce can be a feat ability in conjunction with some other stuff.

Changelog:

• Updated Distracted and Extremely Distracted penalties. Removed Shocked.
• Detect Fraud removed from Appraisal; ability to tell real merch from fake rolled back into standard Appraise abilities.
• Disguise renamed to Transformation to better indicate revised focus
• Costumes limited to disguise level abilities. Still grant minor height and weight changing.
• Fire-retardant face paint given a 10 day expiration
• Fantastic Costume et al renamed to Transfiguration abilities. Limited number of abilities on hand at any time, but can be spread across one or many transformations as desired. Duration nerfs as well. Now opposed by Discern Transmutation in perception, and can not be seen by insufficiently trained individuals.
• Transfiguration abilities moved back 2 ranks, to more directly compete with polymorph and to line up with Discern Transmutation in Perception. Alter self is largely ignored now though.
• Discern Fraud lost reroll ability, as it wouldn't work as intended.
• Discern Transformation in Perception renamed, and now used to detect Transfigurations. Rolling well allows ability to dismiss Transfigurations with a touch attack or grants bonus on dispel checks.
• New end conditions for secondary save abilities - +5 total bonus = success; DC-11 = failure. Boosted bonus modifiers to +/-2 and +/-3.
• Clarity edit for Not Finished Yet so that targets are only stunned if that is a less bad condition than the alternative, like dead. Also specified that immunity to stun does not apply in that case.
• Split up Split Focus and Manage Interruption abilities of Concentration, since they were aimed at different things. New text should be more clear.
• Clarified Conceal Action ability of Legerdemain. Now only applies to touch and sight events, adds to base perception DC instead of replacing it (for touch applications), and does not grant an immediate notice check in violation of notice limit.
• Added Faster than the False Eyes ability to Legerdemain, so they can deal with enhanced senses. May split the ability, to better mirror other enhanced sense countering abilities.

---

A non-bug related question for you LeadPal. You said it was rough but mostly working. Does that mean that the non-casters feel like they have similar utility abilities to fall back on as the actual casters, and don't feel as overshadowed? Or just that it's mostly not mechanical nonsense?

I'll go over the changelog later. A typo for the meantime: Acrobatics (Dance on Clouds) gives two DCs, 30 in the paragraph and 28 in at the bottom.

TarkisFlux wrote:A non-bug related question for you LeadPal. You said it was rough but mostly working. Does that mean that the non-casters feel like they have similar utility abilities to fall back on as the actual casters, and don't feel as overshadowed? Or just that it's mostly not mechanical nonsense?

I meant the latter, mostly. I'm using a lot of houserules already, so it's hard for me to speak with confidence on how it affects game balance by itself.